I need explanation of Device1 in KM setup vs byte2 and ov

[ElizabethD]

This file uses Panasonic(old) protocol:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jp1/files ... -GX330.txt
KM shows that it's using device1=9 on setup sheet, nothing in byte 2 and ov=3 for all function. What does this mean? How does it relate to little that I know, such as main device 160, sub=0 in 1-byte protocol, or 160.18 or 145.x for tape and so on, in a 2-byte protocol?

Another example is this file:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jp1/files ... stereo.txt
Here, using the same protocol as above, Device1=18, byte 2 for functions=3, ov column is blank. I don'tunderstand any of it

[johnsfine]

Panasonic(old) protocol is what we call a "mini-combo". That means it is a combo without needing a second byte of hex command.

That is possible because there are only 64 possible OBC numbers rather than the usual 256, so a 2 bit ov field is stored in the same 8-bit hex command with the 6 bit OBC.

On the setup sheet you can select up to 3 different device numbers. If you only select one, I think KM is smart enough to duplicate it into all three fixed data positions (to eliminate the consequences of most errors in the OV field).

The OV field has three valid choice that select from the three device numbers and one invalid choice that produces strange results.

IIRC, KM does not encode the OV field correctly, so if you have three different device numbers you won't get the one you expect. But if you have only one device number (and if I'm right about KM duplicating that in fixed data) then three out of four of the OV choices will be equally correct.

[ElizabethD]

John, Neat explanation . As usual.So I entered powers of 2 into OBC and see what you have described. Thanks.
To folowu p: in the absence of raw data in the form of learned signal, is it valid to assume that learning from this equipment would report Panasonic(old), device 9|18 and sub=3 for the files I mentioned? That's all I'm really after at this point.

[The Robman]

OK, first things first, there's no relationship between the two protocols (ie, "Panasonic (Old)" and "Panasonic") other than the fact that they both come from the same company. One isn't a variation of the other, they're totally different. Panasonic changed protocols sometime back in the mid 90's.

Secondly, the old protocol doesn't have a sub device. What Johnw as trying to explain is that this protocol uses a short 6-bit command code, which means there's 2 bits left over. UEI decided to use these bits to create what we call a mini-combo. A mini-combo is a protocol that let's you combine different device codes, while still using just one variable byte of data.

He is also correct that KM does indeed have a bug in the way byte2/ov works. If you've selected OBC mode, you're supposed to be able to enter up to 3 device codes in the setup sheet and then enter a number in byte2 (1, 2 or 3) to select which one you want to use (ie, device1, device2, or device3). If you've selected EFC mode, when you enter the EFCs, the "OV" column is meant to show you which device code is selected with that EFC. The bug means that the numbers don't match up correctly, but I don't recall how they do line up at present.

[ElizabethD]

Ok, we’re getting somewhere, but it’s still a bit fuzzy (Btw, I don’t have this equipment, nor am I coding it - just trying to figure it out).
If a new user asks how to code this equipment, what do you say? Would IR learning tab report the same number as coded in the upgrade files as device, and nothing for subdevice?

Following Rob’s elaboration of John’s answer, this old protocol looks to me, on the surface, similar in concept to DC, except for the clever trick of handling the 6-2 bit split. Now, if ov of 3 is an index, and Devices 2-3 aren’t filled in, what’s going on and where does the default of 45 or 27 come from.

This may be invalid, but if I look at these upgrades knowing how DC works, then, given fixed bytes, devices.xls (the new IMPORTANT one) tells me all 3 devices are 9 for GX330, and 18 for DS40. In KM only Device1 is filled, rest are blanks/defaults. So I’m missing something, and I just checked KM readme, so Mark won’t have to quote it here, but it’s not too clear to me what it really says.

[The Robman]

What is DC? We normally use that abbreviation for the "Device Combiner" but I'm guessing that's not what you meant.

To answer your question, a normal user would learn the signals and IR would report them as being "Panasonic (Old)" with one device code and one command code (ie, OBC) (but it might show up to 3 possible EFCs).

If the user were to ask, we would all recommend that the user select OBC mode in KM or RM. The user would then select the Panasonic old protocol and enter the device code (9 in this case). Assuming that the user leaves dev2 and dev3 blank, KM and RM would automatically carry that device code over to dev2 and dev3 so all three would be set to 9. This may cause KM or RM to generate different fixed data that what the original setup code used, but as long as the first byte is the same, it doesn't matter. Then the user would enter their OBC numbers in the Functions sheet and they would leave the byte2 column blank. As KM would have carried the device code over all three device codes, it doesn't matter which one is selected.

Now, I know you're doing research to try and collect together all the Panasonic codes for that Panny master spreadsheet that i started, but personally, I would suggest that you skip these upgrades that use the old protocol. Either that or put that data in a completely different spreadsheet. I haven't checked the OBCs to see if there's any carry over from the old to the new, but I doubt it.

[johnsfine]

Would IR learning tab report the same number as coded in the upgrade files as device, and nothing for subdevice?

It should report the correct device, no subdevice, the correct OBC and all three possible EFCs.

Now, if ov of 3 is an index, and Devices 2-3 aren’t filled in, what’s going on and where does the default of 45 or 27 come from.

The default for the second device is whatever value you gave for the first. The default for the third is to match the second (either the value given for the second or the value the second gets by default from the first).

KM says that the value displayed to the right of the cell is the default. But that seems to be another KM bug. The value displayed on the right is garbage, but the default operates correctly (as I described in the previous paragraph).

tells me all 3 devices are 9 for GX330, and 18 for DS40.

I assume you mean those upgrades, rather than those original devices, since the original device doesn't have 3 device numbers. I hope you understand now that entering the device number in just the Device1 position (and leaving the other two blank) generates exactly the same upgrade as entering it in all three positions.

There were a lot of TV/VCR combo devices using this protocol that used a TV device number for a few commands and the VCR device number for most commands. That may be the reason a mini combo was needed. There was also at least one GE VCR that used this protocol but had working VOL commands that used the TV device number.

The main use of this protocol now is Scientific Atlanta cable boxes (device 27).

[ElizabethD]

What is DC? We normally use that abbreviation for the "Device Combiner" but I'm guessing that's not what you meant.

I did mean it at the time of posting the note because of what you wrote which sounded like the process of using DC. I took a bag off my head afterwards when I realised th inconsistency of DC with just one protocol.

I would suggest that you skip these upgrades that use the old protocol…
I haven't checked the OBCs to see if there's any carry over from the old to the new, but I doubt it.

Spreadsheet name implied to me all files. Having ran into difficulty understanding what I was looking at, skipping has crossed my mind as an easy way out of trouble, but I got curious about this. Anyway, you’ll call the shots.
FYI: In one of these files, OBCs for numbers are common for old and new, in the other upgrade I see no such relation. Curiously, in those days, num0 had the lowest code of the bunch. Why would anyone change that in the corporate evolution of codes is anyone’s guess.

I assume you mean those upgrades, rather than those original devices, since the original device doesn't have 3 device numbers.

Yes, I understand one device doesn’t have three device numbers. The headings/title got me initially.

It should report the correct device, no subdevice, the correct OBC and all three possible EFCs.

That was one of the missing links.

I hope you understand now that entering the device number in just the Device1 position (and leaving the other two blank) generates exactly the same upgrade as entering it in all three positions.

Two experts, two rounds later, I now understand . Many thanks to both of you.

Separate issue: I'm having a devil of a time typing into the reply box. Can't select text to delete/change and/or for preview I get an error of the 'this site cannot be displayed, check internet settings'. Is it me or are people reporting trouble? Also, most important, can't put the little smilies in